Using courses designed and certified by others

[fltimer]

Am curious on your thoughts of using a race course that has been designed, measured and certified by another race company.

Reason I am asking is that our company has worked with clients to helped them from A to Z on their race courses and most clients like the fact that they have a unique course. Recently a local competitor that has not been in the business that long has come in twice and used courses for their clients that we had established for ours.

I realize that there is no legal ramification here because streets are for public use. However if I was in their position I would have at least placed a courtesy call to us to discuss this, which was never done and we didn't feel this was very professional on their part.

Is it too much to think our competitors should exercise a little professionalism or are we being too picky?

[JimG]

This comes up from time to time in Road Running Technical Council business.

The basic upshoot is that a certified course falls in the public domain - there is no way to "copyright" or "patent" a course, since, obviously, the roads are, for the most part, public.

The actual cost of course certification can vary depending on whether an outside measurer was hired or the race organizers performed it themselves.

The bottom line is that a courtesy call would be appreciated, but is certainly not required.

[Trailrunnerdude]

As JimG pointed out, you can't copyright a course. Personnally, I don't have a problem with races using a course I design as long as they don't try to do it on the day of my race. This shows that you've designed an attractive course. The real question for JimG or the road racing technical council, is what do/can we do if another race uses an established course, but alters the markings it or tries to get it certified as though they designed & measured it?

[Cannon]

There are often situations where races will use part or all of an existing race course in designing a new race. Perhaps lengthening an existing 5-miler to make a 10k, or using half of a marathon course to do a half marathon at another time.

From the RD standpoint, I'd be real hesitant to use another course unless I've done enough of my own work to trust the course. I recently ran a half marathon that I had run 19 years ago as my PR for the distance. The course hadn't changed and was probably never certified. Now with Garmin technology, I learned that my "PR" for the half marathon distance was actually over 12.8 miles!

Even the map you can get from USATF for a certified course doesn't give you all of the details that are likely known to the person certifying the course and, presumably the RD. Where the cones are to be placed as a course moves through a parking lot or other area where there are options for a slight variance are not always available on-line. If a second RD were to use someone else's course and call it "certified", I think there is real opportunity for trouble if the accuracy of the course were to be challenged.

[Finish_Line]

While I would have no problem with others co-opting a course that I had certified, I would have a problem if the other race attempted to claim the certification number as theirs. I am under the impression that course certification numbers are unique to a given event, and I would have a problem if the other event re-used "my" certfication. If I found that to be the case, I would definitely be putting in a call.

[JimG]

Let me try to answer the preceding 3 posts.

Finish_Line - The certification # refers to the COURSE, not the event. You may be confusing it with a SANCTION #, which is specific to a unique event. Thus, if I wanted to stage a marathon from Staten Island to Central Park, I could use the ING-NYCM certificate map and # and anyone who ran it could use the times for Boston qualifier, say (assuming I could get all the police permits!).

Canon - The requirements for a certification map are that someone w/ no familiarity with the area could use the map to set up and followed the course correctly. Thus, coning restrictions, etc. must be detailed on the map.

As for using an existing course and adding to it, that won't fly - the new distance must be measured twice for its total length. The only possible exception might be an 8km/5 mile conversion, since the difference is only a few meters and could be done w/ a steel tape (in fact I think I ran such a race, the Bill Liuti Run, New Hampsire's oldest, last summer).

Trailrunnerdude - Not sure why another race would try to have an existing course "recertified" as their own, if it's already certified. Certainly they could remeasure an existing course and submit it, but I think that's a lot of effort that most wouldn't bother with.

[Finish_Line]

I stand corrected. Thanks very much for the clarification.

[Trailrunnerdude]

Originally Posted by JimG

Not sure why another race would try to have an existing course "recertified" as their own, if it's already certified. Certainly they could remeasure an existing course and submit it, but I think that's a lot of effort that most wouldn't bother with.

I'm surprised by your answer. There are some unscrupulous people out there and some may want to take credit for a well-designed race course. All they would have to do is move the start or finish a couple feet, erase the existing course markings from an existing course and use their own, then submit it for certification.

[JimG]

I'm surprised anyone would go to those lengths to do that. But I suppose there is nothing to stop someone from measuring an already certified course from a slightly different start or finish and making the resultant course "theirs." They would have to do the required 2 rides of the course, including pre- and post-calibration (and find or lay out a calibration course) and submit their own map and paperwork.

[Finish_Line]

I agree with this assessment. What benefit is there to laying out a course that is "shifted" by a couple of feet?

Unscrupulous people? You bet.
This scenario? I don't get it.